Building an "audience" vs. "building a community" and why it matters [Part 2]

In this cheeky little podcast episode of ours, we have a good old chinwag about the pearls of wisdom Siobhan Fisher dropped on us about of what sets apart building a gaggle of followers from nurturing a proper community for those plucky small businesses.

We're having a chat about how a community is all about getting stuck in and having a proper back-and-forth, while an audience is more about sitting back and soaking it all in, using social media as an example. And blimey, do we get into a spirited debate about the need to create a cosy nook where all sorts of views can have a exchange ideas. We're also taking a trip down memory lane, sharing our own little love stories with brands – like Pippa's soft spot for Lucy & Yak.

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Transcript

Pippa: 0:30

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome back to the Disobedient Business Podcast. I am your co host Pippa Parfait and

Lucy: 0:39

I am your other co host, Lucy.

Pippa: 0:41

also Parfait. Fun times.

Lucy: 0:44

The people know this.

Pippa: 0:46

Do you think so? Do you think they've got the message already? Right, so this week's episode is one of our Let's Explore and Discuss one of our guest episodes. So last week's podcast episode, which if you haven't listened to already, scootch on backwards and take a bit of a listen, was with myself and the lovely Siobhan Fisher, who is a marketing pal and pal generally of ours. Siobhan and I spoke about this idea of building a community versus building an audience. What's the difference and why it matters and why you might care. The other significant thing about this episode is the last one in the season. This was season three, just in case you haven't been counting, and season four will be back in late April. So, as you weren't on the podcast recording, Lou, and obviously you get the opportunity to listen back as if you were a listener to this podcast. What was one of your key sort of first impressions and takeaways from the episode, apart from the fact that obviously it was a super lovely episode, because Siobhan is obviously a super lovely person.

Lucy: 1:54

First of all, you're a twat, Pippa, but I love you. Second of all, folks, Pippa's going the right way for a smacked bottom. It's a Friday afternoon and neither of us are fucking with this It's not the vibe

Pippa: 2:10

It's very, it's very much gonna, probably gonna be a bit of a fuck around and find out episode, folks, so strap yourselves in.

Lucy: 2:16

it is I thought it was really interesting because I think that We as small business owners Possibly tend to use those terms almost interchangeably. there might be a little bit of a, awareness that they're not quite the same, but I think, I personally feel that the terms probably tend to cross over quite a lot. and so I actually really. appreciated thinking about it in a conscious way and the way that Siobhan explained it in terms of your audience you're kind of broadcasting to, whereas community, is a lot more feeding each other, feeding every, every which way. And I pictured some really clear graphics in my head of how to explain that visually if I was going to for someone in text. So yeah, I thought that was, a really fascinating thing just to take a moment and think about because they are actually quite different I mean, this, I think the key place that we tend to overlap is things like Instagram, where we use the word audience and community almost interchangeably for people that are following you. and they're definitely not the same. When you actually think about it?

Pippa: 3:27

No, and it's interesting that you went there with the, the first thought because I think for me, and I'm fairly certain Siobhan would agree, it's not so much platform specific or scenario specific or anything like that, so much as it is how you're showing up in that space as the person who is. I don't know, ostensibly the leader, like the person who is fostering that sense of whatever. So whilst Instagram is a, is arguably a broadcast platform, right? You create content, whatever that may be, whether you're talking on stories or in grids or whatever, and it is broadcast to other people, but the how of the showing up within those kind of spaces, both, subconsciously, but also very much so with intention and consciously, I be, I, I truly believe is what fosters the difference between having an audience and having a community. So it's, it's more, it is, I think I said this to you earlier, it's much more, community as a verb, as opposed to as a noun. Do you see what I mean?

Lucy: 4:31

Yes, and Also no ha

Pippa: 4:36

Cool. That's good. Say, say more.

Lucy: 4:38

So My thing is, is that I'm going to stick with Instagram as the example

Pippa: 4:43

Cool.

Lucy: 4:44

for now Let's not fuck about with others For the moment That means So you're saying that because of the way that you show up on Instagram, you are in community with every single one of our followers.

Pippa: 4:57

No, that's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is that, it's an interesting point, I think what I'm saying is that you can approach any one of your marketing, and let's face it, let's come back to one of the things that, that Siobhan brought us back to in the episode, which was Let's face it, these are marketing efforts. There are many, many wonderful byproducts of these marketing efforts. Long life friendships and all sorts of which we have made, you know, we slash I have made many, through. The platform that we were just talking about Instagram, but the how you utilize those marketing efforts, how you show up, how your business exhibits itself, how you share, and we'll get more into that, in a minute. Yourself on that kind of platform is definitely what is fostering that level of two way connection with the people that it's landing with. But you're absolutely right, if you then flip that on its head, and if I think, you know, we've got, 600 or something like that followers on Instagram, no, I am not in community and direct connection, whether it's regularly or otherwise, with every single one of them.

Lucy: 6:03

Yeah, and also with things like Instagram or even your email marketing list, you have, apart from going out and finding specific people that you don't want to be on it and removing them, you have no control over who's joining those things. Like anyone could be following us. The most right wing, fascist anyone could be following us.

Pippa: 6:25

Oh, I really hope they are, because I really hope they're enjoying the intersectional feminist content, with a massive big slice of fuck you as they're reading it. Yep.

Lucy: 6:35

it's interesting, isn't it? Because I know that we've talked in previous seasons of the podcast, and also just generally in life about diversifying your feed. And diversifying your content, because of the whole echo chamber and the algorithm and etc. And that, even if you don't appreciate everything that they have to say, it's good to hear opinions from other people. And I believe there's a quote from you somewhere, Pippa, saying that you agreed with something Piers Morgan said once, although you generally despise the man.

Pippa: 7:05

there's no generally about it. I do despise the man and I think he is absolutely corrupt and bereft of morals and, you know, hashtag these are the the speaker's personal opinions and therefore they are definitely not to be construed in any legal fashion whatsoever. They are entirely my personal views. However, yeah, but, you know, it comes back and I may even have used this quote last time. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. there's got to be some things that Piers Morgan believes in life that align with me. Many, many, many of them. Not so much.

Lucy: 7:38

exactly. But, so say in order to diversify my feed, I followed Piers Morgan, but I'm definitely not in community with Piers Morgan,

Pippa: 7:48

yeah, true.

Lucy: 7:49

and I'm definitely not in Piers Morgan's community, but I would be in his audience,

Pippa: 7:54

so here's, here's a thing. What would make you feel, so that's, oh, this is, this is, Lucy is spicy today, folks. And I'm here for it, because this is going to be interesting.

Lucy: 8:04

Lucy's autistic, Lucy's pissed off, Lucy's been cold as, like, fucking anything this week. Lucy's had a nap, Lucy's revved up and ready to go. Fight me!

Pippa: 8:17

Alright, steady on,

Lucy: 8:18

Maybe we should speak to Piers Morgan.

Pippa: 8:20

Yeah, we should have him, we should invite him on and see what happens. oh God help us. But what, what makes the difference there then? So dig into that. So you would be a follower, you would be a member of Piers Morgan's audience. What would make you, I mean God forbid that I can get whatever the answer, just again, this is one of the, brace yourself for the answer folks. But what would need to change, or what would be different for you to feel like you were in community? So you're going to regret pricking this example now, because his entire personality is not, probably not on the table.

Lucy: 8:56

Well, I mean, I think it would be having, like, if the posts had a space where people could have intelligent discourse about differing opinions, etc. I know that if I was to show up with my opinion on a Piers Morgan post, like, I would be attacked by the internet. It wouldn't be safe.

Pippa: 9:17

Oh, the trolls would take, they would take you down. Yeah.

Lucy: 9:19

yeah, I wouldn't feel safe to comment on it. So just because I see his content, like very technically I'm in his audience, but I'm not engaging as a member of his community.

Pippa: 9:31

So, pause that thought, because there I think you've hit upon one of the, one of the many nuanced elements of community versus audience, which is that that, let's call the host for the moment, so in this case, Piers Morgan, has or hasn't attempted, because they don't have any control over this necessarily, to foster a, a space that feels safe for you to be able to show up and share. your thoughts and feelings. And contrast that from somebody who is attempting to curate a space that whilst they may not have ultimate control over it depending on, because trolls be trolls, right? But would, be moderating that space if you like. So they might be moderating comments or they might be going in and taking down attack comments and, and, you know, racist or ableist or gendered or whatever, attacks when they happen. Or if they happen, in a way that I don't imagine, many would give a shit.

Lucy: 10:26

I, I almost disagree with you a little bit, because I think Piers Morgan probably does create community. It's just that I am not intended to be a person in his community and ergo I would be attacked. Whereas we would welcome Smart discourse, even if it disagreed with something that we said, and we would have a fair and intelligent conversation, whereas the community that Piers Morgan creates, intentionally or otherwise, is attack, defend, staunchly our position on these matters, like woe betide you for having something different that, disagrees with our doctrine.

Pippa: 11:10

But does that still come back to this idea of that the host that is in some way, shape or form, I realize that's very different on an open Instagram platform, for example, but, has the intention, desire, consciousness and attempts to create a space where, to use the phrase that you just used, like intelligent and constructive discourse that does not attack people for their different views can take place?

Lucy: 11:34

But that's what you want out of community. Other people just want to feel like they can be heard and that these now, you know, supposedly politically unpopular I'm doing bunny ears for everyone politically unpopular opinions of being right wing and having Feelings that are very much against certain communities and marginalised communities. They would feel that that is a safe space for them to go and spew that shit, because the PC police, again, big fucking bugs bunny ears people,

Pippa: 12:06

is. Yep.

Lucy: 12:06

would come after them if they were to speak those things publicly. So he is creating a community. It's not a community that I want to be a part of.

Pippa: 12:17

Yeah,

Lucy: 12:17

a whole separate conversation in there about, you know, maybe community and audience over, followers versus like creating Like Donald Trump, what is it mobilizing people to actually do bad on your behalf?

Pippa: 12:35

Well that's that's an interesting point, so does, does Donald Trump foster community? Or is he fostering, obedient followers? Which is just another way of kind of saying audience on acid, right?

Lucy: 12:48

It's interesting, and I think that, I do think it's an entirely different conversation because we're going to get way, way off topic of marketing for small business owners.

Pippa: 12:57

I'll bring us back in a second, I promise, But, I it's a fascinating it's so nuanced, right?

Lucy: 13:02

I mean, he is creating community because again, it's a collective of people that feel that when they're in that space, they feel, they feel safe to spew, vile hatred that they would, they would quite correctly feel unsafe to share elsewhere.

Pippa: 13:21

That's fair, yeah?

Lucy: 13:23

but then he's created that community. And then there's the kind of, I guess, I'm not even sure I have the words at this point in the afternoon on a Friday and with zero preparation of it going down this avenue to think, to think about, how that community then turns into something that's kind of weaponized,

Pippa: 13:43

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no, no, we don't we don't want to dig into that today, for sure.

Lucy: 13:47

Yeah, that's, that's, that's very different. Just send your emails everybody! Just send happy, just send your happy little emails to people and post on social media. Let's forget, let's forget about Donald Trump.

Pippa: 13:59

don't be an arsehole, be inclusive, the end of the episode, no. Okay, so let's bring it back to the whole purpose of this because of course we are actually talking about marketing your online business or otherwise. by which I mean otherwise as in your business might not be online. one of the things I think you had some thoughts about were Around the example that Siobhan and I discussed about Lucy and Yak. So, full disclosure, both Lucy and I, this Lucy, not the Lucy of Lucy and Yak. Big, big Dungaree

Lucy: 14:29

I wish.

Pippa: 14:30

fans.

Lucy: 14:31

I'm sure Lucy of Lucy and Yak is also a Dunkery fan.

Pippa: 14:35

she is. She's probably slightly better off than we are, ethically or otherwise. However

Lucy: 14:41

so, yeah.

Pippa: 14:43

we got into a conversation about that, about me feeling a real sense of community and belonging within the Lucian Yak brand. Case in point, at the time of recording this particular episode, they have recent, they've literally just launched a new, range and I was chatting with them and I am under, under no delusions that I was chatting with whoever happens to be in the office on the social media. Team today, so I'm not, you know, I'm not sat there thinking I'm having a chat with Lucy that Lucy herself

Lucy: 15:11

Not the Yak.

Pippa: 15:12

But about the new brand and how much the new range and how much I loved it and what have you Lucy my my Lucy this Lucy here loves a dungaree every bit as much as I do possibly even more so is Not a Lucy and yak wearer. So tell me about your thoughts around mine and Siobhan's conversation about Lucy and yak

Lucy: 15:33

So, I noodled on it because I thought it was interesting. and The reason I thought it was interesting is coming as soon as my thoughts finish buffering. Bear with me. so Pippa said in that episode that she felt that she was part of a Lucy and Yak community, even though Lucy and Yak is ostensibly a, you know, kind of a bigger brand. It's not, absolutely top tier, massive brand, but it's, you know, bigger than disobedient business. For example, it's no longer like a tiny, small, a small business.

Pippa: 16:07

Alright, enough of the tiny small. I can live with small, but we're not tiny.

Lucy: 16:11

are you referring to the size of our buttocks?

Pippa: 16:13

Well, my buttocks and your buttocks are alike, but neither is the business. The business is not

Lucy: 16:18

Okay. okay. so I think The thing that I can't say for sure because I don't know that much about Lucy and Yak, I'm not a as much of a fan as Pippa is, but that's for very For different reasons. My personality is very much Lucy and Yak. I can understand wholeheartedly anyone that meets me would probably think I'm into Lucy and Yak. The reason I'm not into Lucy and Yak is nothing to do with Lucy and Yak. It's to do with the fact that I really struggle when everyone's really excited about something. Because it feels like I can't have a special thing. So anything that's like super massive, whether that's a TV series or a film, someone's like, if everyone's like, oh you've got to watch so and so, you've got to watch so and so, you've got to listen to this, I automatically don't want to. Because I need to do it in my own time.

Pippa: 17:08

Clearly the current exception having been saltburn.

Lucy: 17:10

Ah, no, I tell you what, I watch Saltburn. I'm not a fan. I'm not, I'm not a fan, I'm not a, I'm not a hater, I only watch Saltburn, I didn't want to and that's probably why I've ended up with a slightly more negatively leaning opinion of it. Because someone said that they absolutely needed to hear my position on it, and so I had to watch it And I was like, I really don't want to, and they were like, no, please, because I've been talking to everyone about it and I know that you're going to have an opinion that's going to mean something to me, and I was like, fucking fine. So anyway, and that's why I don't, because if I'd come to it in my own time and on my own speed, I'd probably have enjoyed Saltburn a lot more than I ended up doing. Anyway, Lucy and Yak, it got me to thinking. I don't know a lot about Lucy and Yak, but I I do kind of understand what Pip is saying about feeling a sense of community. How much they create that, I don't know. I know that they have values and are out, spoken about them. and ergo that will attract certain people to them. Again, not necessarily everyone, because some people will just be like, this is a clothing fad. I want to wear clothes that are popular. They might not care about the politics at all. but I can understand why Pippa definitely feels a sense of community, whether They have consciously intended to create a community or not because clothes are very much your identity. They're the part of your identity that you get to choose. There are many surface level things that you can change about yourself as a person in how you present yourself to others. Clothes is a massive one. so if you're walking down the street and you see someone else in Lucy and Dungarees, it's almost like when bus drivers pass each other and they do the little wave.

Pippa: 18:56

That's just thought of when you said that! That's exactly what I just thought of! Or taxi drivers that give it the whole little wave as they let each other go. Yes!

Lucy: 19:04

kind of, you, you would look at, you would clock each other and be like, Oh okay, I feel like I know something about that person.

Pippa: 19:10

have not yet, for the record, high fived a fellow Lucy and Yak wearer in public, but it has started many a conversation. There's been many a conversation of, Oh, that range? When was that range out there? Really cool. Love that design.

Lucy: 19:24

Yeah. And so, I started to think about if this scaled, to a brand that was even bigger, that I think possibly the community was not very high on their agenda, and so I got to think about brands like Nike, Nike, call them what you will, I can't, I can't be dealing, and how much they consciously create a community, however, their brand. Products, there are communities that have formed, Because if you think about it, you've got things like the sneaker community and if there were people that were within the sneaker community that saw you walk down the road and you were wearing particularly old Nikes of a certain type or, whether they were in good condition or bad condition or whether you had the latest. Nikes, and the kind of condition that they were in, they would, that would mean something to them. It doesn't mean anything to me, but if someone saw, like, a particularly pair of something or other that were still pristine, that would mean a lot to them, and that would say a lot to them about who you were as a person. And, well, not necessarily your politics, but, like, what you cared about and what you were into, and that would be part of being in a community.

Pippa: 20:42

A great example being like people and their vintage Jordans, right? That kind of thing.

Lucy: 21:41

Yeah, exactly, and people that collect them and etc. and then also you've got the things that potentially come with community and not. I've got like a loose thing about how like you've got big stars like Well, I guess Taylor Swift creates community on a massive scale, and Taylor Swift and Beyonce, they both consciously foster community, but on a fucking massive level. that they're not necessarily You know, directly feeling into as much as it is buzzing around them. they are, but they're not talking to each other in the way that the fans in the community are talking to each other. but then also, they still have an audience. They have people that are not part of their communities at all, but that still are technically audience that listen to their, music. Anyway, I digress.

Pippa: 22:30

So just hold that thought about audience and community for a minute because I want to ask you about that a sec. But, so, just to round off the Lucy and Yak situation, so, what I find really interesting in all of that is the Lucy and Yak journey. So, I was probably first aware, and I'm gonna absolutely fluff up the timeline here, because the pandemic has basically meant that, well, that and menopause, and ADHD has meant that no concept of whether it was four, two, six, or eight years ago, but I'm gonna go with five. I remember being aware of, and rather liking, which for someone of my generation, the idea that I would suddenly start liking corduroy in any format ever again is beyond belief, because corduroy was something, for my generation, that you were forced to wear by your parents, and you didn't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever! I can't emphasize this enough, we're out of choice. And then these dungarees came along, and they were fab, and they were popular and they were colourful and they They stood for something, and they were everywhere, and I live in the city of Bristol, and we are particularly that way inclined, and so Lucy and Yak are very prevalent in Bristol. However, I have very rarely in my life been, considered to be a, a typical, or certainly the size that, most designers create clothes for. And Lucy and Yak at the time, which is why I apologise in advance if I'm fluffing the timeline, about five ish years ago, were absolutely not inclusive with their clothing. And I think, if I think back to then, my like of, and this is a really interesting like audience to, to community sort of transition type example, my, my relationship with them, if you like, was that I liked their clothing from a distance, I did not see myself in it, I did not see myself reflected, or many different flavours of bodies, whether that be, size, colour, disability, and Gender, expression, all sorts of other variants, reflected in their imagery, and their clothes, quite frankly, did not fit me, and a large percentage of the folks in the community that would like to, to wear them, and they have very consciously, it would appear from the outside, changed that over the last period of time, to the point at which their sizing is incredibly inclusive, their Photography is always representing, a wide range of body examples and body expressions and so on. And gradually over that period of time, I have definitely gone from feeling like a member of their audience, but I just couldn't be quite included in their community. So very much a member of their community. So that feels like a really interesting example of what they've done and how they've done that. Because it feels like When you're going about actually, consciously and intentionally creating community as part of your business or brand, whatever you'd like to call yourself, it's about expressing yourself and your business about what you stand for, what you stand against, what's important to you. Owning your fuck ups publicly, because if I vaguely remember that there were statements and things at the time because, there was a big period of time a few years back where clothing brands were being called out for their lack of inclusive sizing and Lucy, I do remember Lucy and Yat getting hit with that quite substantially. And they've, for whatever reasons, whether it's been for business and marketing reasons, whether it's been because of values or a combination of have gone about fostering an inclusive community where feedback is valued and actioned upon and, people are included, and they have spoken loudly and proudly about what they stand for and backed it up with action, whether it be in changes in the way that they market and size their products through to, fundraising and for everything in between, I'm going to sound a little bit A little bit Lucy and Lachs sycophantic soon, so I think I might back that off now. But the journey and the story feels really quite relevant to what we were talking about today.

Lucy: 26:23

Yes, also just to be factually accurate it was September 2020.

Pippa: 26:27

Was it? So four years then. Well, nearly four years. When was it that recent? Fuckin hell.

Lucy: 26:32

It's three and a half, like maximum.

Pippa: 26:35

So, mid, mid early stage Panny D then? Fun times.

Lucy: 26:38

well, I think it's late enough in the panedy that, I don't know, maybe, maybe, it blew up because people, needed

Pippa: 26:45

Yeah.

Lucy: 26:45

do, so,

Pippa: 26:46

Yeah. Yeah. So we, we mounted a takedown. Nice. just for the record, I didn't have anything to do with that. I did not mount that takedown. Lucy, I really want to ask you a question, because we're, we're kind of tight on time, I think. which is you, alluded to, a few minutes ago that That there would be a scenario where you would, intentionally or otherwise, both be building and having an audience and a community. When we were talking about The Delightful Peers. Talk to me about that. Talk to me about the point of that. Talk to me about why you think that and what you think.

Lucy: 27:17

I think, this, just a point to say that this episode is really gone. In such a strange and fascinating direction and has really developed as we've spoken because when we were planning this We kind of struggled to think of the, the thoughts that we wanted to put out. and they definitely didn't roll in these particular directions and I've, a lot has come to mind as we've been talking. so I kind of felt that you could have an audience and a community. And I felt originally going into the recording this that community didn't necessarily scale. But then. I'm now thinking about things like Taylor Swift and Beyonce and the two that are just coming to mind, but I know that there'll be plenty. They definitely have a very clear audience and community, because they're the, you know, the Swifties. that are a whole community.

Pippa: 28:14

And clearly, you know, if you look at it from a business angle, it's clear. I'm no diss to Beyonce or Swift, Taylor Swift, I'm a big fan of both, but it's clearly strategically intentional to be, to be doing that. Right.

Lucy: 28:25

sure, I mean you want fans when you're putting out.

Pippa: 28:29

No, I'm not. So yeah, but the, the, the having a strategy that takes their fans beyond the level of just armor, there's plenty of bands that have fans. There's not that many bands that have that true community and. Dare I even say slight hero worship style with with acts like Beyonce and Taylor Swift.

Lucy: 28:48

Yeah, I guess, it depends, I don't know. I don't know enough to say how much it spreads. but they both foster community on a massive scale. and also have audience that have like, Beyonce means nothing to them other than it comes on the rodeo and then I can't, it's a bop. Whereas, like, I'm not a hardcore Beyonce fan, but Beyonce means a lot more to me than it just coming on the radio and being a bop, So those are some, I think, examples where people are really consciously creating community on a big scale and where there's still a massive distinction between community and audience and how both are important to them. as well as the clothing thing, I started thinking about if that can translate outside of your clothing choices, because of that strong link between your sense of fashion and how you present yourself and your identity. so I started to think about some emails that might be in my inbox. Grind coffee, anyone? so I get emails from grind coffee. I'm definitely not in community with grind coffee. I'm barely in audience with grind coffee Things like booking. com. I get emails from booking. com if I was sat next to someone and they said oh I've got an email from, I've got a marketing email from booking. com. I would think, okay, alright Sandra.

Pippa: 30:10

good for you. Good for you. Good for you, Dave. yeah

Lucy: 30:13

yeah right.

Pippa: 30:13

on.

Lucy: 30:14

but if someone said to me, Oh, the, the guardians just sent through a newsletter. I'd be like, oh, that would mean something to me. Am I in the

Pippa: 30:24

Sure,

Lucy: 30:24

guardians community? No.

Pippa: 30:27

but I think that proves our point though, doesn't it? I mean if we kind of, we probably ought to wrap this conversation up now, but that it wraps us all the way back to the You, would potentially be in community, either with the Guardian's community or with that person that has just, you know, that has united the two of you. Because it speaks to a set of shared values. So not necessarily all shared values, but if you are a Guardian reader, your values are likely to be similarly in common with somebody else. Unless you are reading the Guardian as a extreme right wing supporter for a The purposes of not living in an echo chamber to bring us back to the Piers Morgan conversation, but which is about how community and the fostering of community within your small business is about expressing yourself and your business and what you stand for and fostering opportunities for two way conversation and two way dialogue and building a relationship as opposed to the simple intention to broadcast and that some people that are going to be in your orbit will pick up on that community and will see themselves as part of it and others will remain audience members forever.

Lucy: 31:38

I would say, if you're starting out, then Probably your emphasis is more on fostering community

Pippa: 31:45

Yeah,

Lucy: 31:46

in terms of what, if you, what you want to consciously do is foster community more than build audience. But I don't think that it means that there isn't space for both. Because your audience may still buy from you.

Pippa: 32:00

that's a freaking wonderful place to wrap it up. I completely agree.

Lucy: 32:04

Hmm.

Pippa: 32:05

So as we mentioned at the get go, this is the last episode. the Disobedient Business Podcast, will be back for season four on Tuesday the 23rd of April, I want to say. hold me to that.

Lucy: 32:20

We'll just appear sometime in April, the spri the lambs will be bouncing in the fields and all of a sudden we'll be bouncing in your ears. Let's not commit ourselves to a hard date

Pippa: 32:31

Let's not.

Lucy: 32:32

how things go.

Pippa: 32:33

thank you for listening folks to what was not the conversation that we thought or knew we were going to have, but nonetheless I think has been a really interesting one. Lucy, would you like to see us out?

Lucy: 32:41

That is all for this week, folks. We will not see you again next week for more disobedient business fuckery and messing with the status quo. We will not see you next Tuesday, but we will see you on a Tuesday, the next Tuesday that we appear in your podcast host of choice.

Pippa: 33:02

Wow.

Lucy: 33:03

I'm going to go and do some autism now.