In this episode we welcome the wonderful Siobhan Fisher to the pod to talk with Pippa about your audience and your community, the pros and cons of each and how to go about building them!
Siobhan is a marketing magician and brings her wealth of knowledge from years working with the 'big dogs' in the corporate world to support the 'little fish' in the small business pond.
Don't forget to join us next week where Pippa and Lucy dive deeper into this meaty topic.
🚨 BIG NEWS YOU GLORIOUS HUMANS 🚨
Disobedient Business® LIVE; the newbie palooza is coming June 2024!
A 4-day virtual summit aimed at helping newbie business owners with wtf this online biz thing is and how tf it all works!
Tickets available real soon, get on the VIP list and be the first to hear at disobedientbusinesslive.com
Our group programmes The Disobedient Business® Minimind and The Disobedient Business® Mastermind are now enrolling - check them out.
Visit our website at disobedientbusiness.com
Come say hi at hello@disobedientbusiness.com
Come and chat on Instagram at @disobedientbusinessco
In this episode we welcome the wonderful Siobhan Fisher to the pod to talk with Pippa about your audience and your community, the pros and cons of each and how to go about building them!
Siobhan is a marketing magician and brings her wealth of knowledge from years working with the 'big dogs' in the corporate world to support the 'little fish' in the small business pond.
Don't forget to join us next week where Pippa and Lucy dive deeper into this meaty topic.
🚨 BIG NEWS YOU GLORIOUS HUMANS 🚨
Disobedient Business® LIVE; the newbie palooza is coming June 2024!
A 4-day virtual summit aimed at helping newbie business owners with wtf this online biz thing is and how tf it all works!
Tickets available real soon, get on the VIP list and be the first to hear at disobedientbusinesslive.com
Our group programmes The Disobedient Business® Minimind and The Disobedient Business® Mastermind are now enrolling - check them out.
Visit our website at disobedientbusiness.com
Come say hi at hello@disobedientbusiness.com
Come and chat on Instagram at @disobedientbusinessco
Welcome. Welcome back to the disobedient business podcast we are talking about audiences and community today and with me I have the wonderful great pal, client, or I don't even know how to describe you anymore Siobhan, you're an absolutely wonderful human. Welcome Siobhan Fisher.
Siobhan:Oh, thank you, Pippa. I will take Wonderful Human any day. That's a wonderful title to have. Thank you, my love. It's great to be here.
Pippa:So first off, how are you doing today? That's always a good start.
Siobhan:Oh, today is a great day. The sun is shining. So yeah, doing well today. Thank you, my love.
Pippa:Absolutely fantastic. So as would be the normal place to start in a podcast, before we really get into talking about audiences and communities and all that kind of thing, I'd really love you to tell us a bit about you, about your business, about your background, you know, what spin, spin your story. We'd love to hear it.
Siobhan:I'm Siobhan Fisher of These Little Fish, which is a marketing consultancy for small business owners. So I focus on helping small business owners to really get clear on who they're talking to, what they're talking to them about, and all with the aim to build up a more engaged community, because I believe that having an engaged community is kind of a shortcut then to making the transition to sale a lot easier rather than going in cold So, I come to support small businesses because I grew up in a small business So my dad was a baker. My mom worked in the bakery with him. We lived above the bakery So yeah, it's in it's literally in my dna small business, I Didn't follow that track Originally, I you know from school and then university into the big corporate world and was there for a good decade Because you know, that's what you do and it wasn't until I went back to work after my maternity leave having I had a few months off with my daughter that I realized that things weren't quite, they weren't quite vibing anymore. And actually on reflection, they probably hadn't been vibing for a long time. but I had, I couldn't see an alternative, you know, I was climbing up the ladder and, got to the role that I wanted to do. I always wanted. I work in client services in big agency land, and it's something I still do actually. And I always wanted to have a household name under my belt and work with, you know, so when I sat down the pub with my mates, I could tell them, you know, I work with whoever and they'd actually recognize that brand name. And so, I landed my dream job. running the food marketing account for M& S. and I did that for four years. And I realized that I'd achieved the thing that I'd always wanted to achieve in my career, and it still didn't, it still didn't fill me with joy. How many times, how many times have you heard that? I was like, oh, yeah, what, what now? What next? This is the thing I wanted and now I've achieved it. It doesn't feel that great, actually. So I'd had that feeling going on, layered on top of coming back in a new identity as a working mom. And I just had, had a moment where I was like, Honestly, at that time, I thought I was done with marketing, which was scary because I had, my entire, my degree, post grad studies, my entire career had all been marketing focused. And I thought I had completely fallen out of love with marketing. Working with a coach, I discovered that it wasn't marketing that I had fallen out of love with, it was the type of marketing that I was doing where I was doing it. and so these little fish formed, about five years ago now. yeah, when my daughter was, two. And, with the sole purpose of supporting small business owners. They're going back to my roots and bringing all of that marketing experience and qualifications, but helping lift up the small business owner. and really kind of tapping into my kind of socialist values of trying to, to spread the wealth. genuinely believe that there is abundance and there's enough for everybody, but just a small pocket of rich, greedy folk hold on to that money and that power. And I'm a realist. I know I'm not going to break that down, but if I can do my little bit to help the small guys claw back a little bit of, of that away from the big guys, then I go to bed happy at night.
Pippa:Yeah, I've got some serious socialist leanings in there, haven't you? Ha ha ha ha ha!
Siobhan:Just a bit.
Pippa:Ha ha ha ha ha! I'm, yeah, no, I'm totally with you, as you know. I, there was, there was a phrase that came to mind, and it's a little bit reductive, but, when you were talking about Winning the big client and that kind of thing and climbing the, the greasy ladder and what have you. It was that whole, I'm going to butcher this because I'm terrible when it comes to recounting phrases that I've heard from somewhere. It's like mixed metaphors, you know, water under the hill, you know, I get them very wrong. but the whole, the trouble with winning the rat race is that when you win the race, you're still a rat. It's the phrase that gets like, yeah, such a good point. Right.
Siobhan:Yeah, very much so. Yes.
Pippa:So what kind of businesses do you work with now? What kind of, you know, what kind of focus do you have in, these little fish now?
Siobhan:So a lot of service-based businesses. I do. I do also support, you know, product-based businesses, but, I seem to have naturally, fallen into, supporting service-based businesses. So I have, holistic healers, yoga teachers, coaches, copywriters. hypnotherapists. Yeah, really, really, kind of diverse, split of business, leaders that, that I support. but the one thing that they do all have in common is that. They seem to all be female. I seem to call in a female community, which is not necessarily something, you know, I'm a feminist through, through the line. So I will support anybody to, to have that equality. And I believe in equality for all, not just based on gender. And so, I find it interesting when I reflect that I seem to call in a community of female founders. and I, I quite rejoice in that fact there as well. I'm not, you know, I'm not down with the guys, you know, that's fine. I will work with, with, with gentlemen, but yeah,
Pippa:I, yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I did my very best or we did our very best to remove gendered language from our, our marketing, our, just the way that we show up. quite some time ago now, like several years in the earlier days of my business, I would, I would refer to, you know, I am here for women who are focused on this and that and the other and so on. We've, I stopped doing that a long, you know, but long before Lucy even got involved with the business, but nonetheless, all of the folks that have worked with me and later, latterly us, thus far have either been women or non binary folk. So, And for the avoidance of any, the doubt of anyone listening, apps obviously include trans women in, in the definition of women, clearly. but yeah, you know, that's certainly not intentional. If there are guys out there that identify with our brand and our work, then, by all means, come knock on the door, right?
Siobhan:I think it's that though. It's, you know, it's that point of calling in a community is that. You're only going to appeal to a particular cohort of people. no matter whether you overtly kind of put that, you know, you see their sales pages, who this is for, who this is not for, you know, you can do that very overtly, but also the psychology of marketing is that there are much more subtle ways that, that it's done as well. And, I don't think there are many men in business who. probably feel the inequality and the, disproportionate way that, wealth is distributed, among society, quite acutely as a female audience would.
Pippa:Yeah, that's true. Well, so you've probably, having referenced calling in communities there, probably segued us quite nicely into sort of getting into what we're talking about today, which is building an audience versus building a community and why it matters. So I. would love to ask you to kick us off by getting into a little bit around what do you see the fundamental differences, and I'm sure that I'm sure there's many, and I'm sure lots of them are subtle, between an audience. And I'm, very much bunny earing now, between audience and community.
Siobhan:Okay, so I see an audience as being quite passive. if you kind of consider where we would find an audience, in the arts, so in a theatre, in cinema, etc. They are sitting there. They have elected. They have, they have purchased a ticket to be in that audience, same with sports audiences. and they are passively absorbing the content that is laid out in front of them. Be that the, the, the match that they're watching, or the performance that, that they're enjoying. So for me, an audience is, is passive and it is a one way kind of transaction between what's going on. it was being played out for them. and, and what they are, they are watching a community for me is a far more dynamic, interaction. And there's a lot more, dynamic energy going on. And it's, interaction between. individuals within, that, that space. So it's not kind of, this passive idea of audience being kind of, a single direction. It's bouncing in between each other. led by the person calling in the community, but not exclusively, then this kind of, you know, one person kind of leading it, it's very much kind of, the commune, if we go back to my left leaning. Yeah, if we look at it in that way, it is very much about interacting with one another and feeling part of something rather than just being an individual partaking in something.
Pippa:Yeah, I feel like that bit for me jumped out as possibly the most important thing there. It's that whole, if I feel part of a community, I feel part of it with the other people within the community. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I know every single one of them, but we feel collectively like a community. And I feel like I am a member of that community. Whereas when I'm in someone's audience, and even if that's not in a more traditional, you know, ticket Buying, you know, theater type sense. you can feel very involved in a performance. You can feel depending on who the person is, that's giving said performance, et cetera, but when the proverbial curtains go down or the person who was on Tiktok is not going to stop going live or whatever, you know, I'm definitely going to get the Tiktok language very wrong. cause I'm old. then that's it. You're done. It's finished. You know, you kind of, no matter how much you've enjoyed it and felt like you've been involved in that moment. That's it. Then finish. You're gone. There's no lingering belonging, right?
Siobhan:Exactly. And I feel like, especially for small business owners, I think it's It's more important to have that ongoing interaction with your community, rather if you're one of the bigger guys, I feel, you know, like my, my big agency, corporate clients talking about audience feels natural and normal because you are talking much bigger numbers as well. So to try and have that kind of interaction going on. you know, once the performance is, is finished is, you know, a much bigger task. but with a smaller business owner, continuing to, to fuel conversations within a community, is far more manageable than this kind of blanket approach to calling in a massive audience or broadcasting to a massive audience. I think that's, that's, that's a difference that I see as well, I think in audiences. is someone who you broadcast to, whereas a community is very much, I use the phrase over and over, calling in, like bringing, because you feel like you're collectively part of something and that energy and that, that movement. So, you know, my audience I'm calling in. Yes, we might work together to look at your marketing strategy, which ultimately helps you to, you know, have more sales, which. redistributes that wealth, amongst, you know, the, the smaller guys and takes a tiny portion away from the big guys. And our time working together works towards that, but you're, you have that fundamentally as something that you want to achieve as well. So we have that thing in common and that's where community sparks a difference for me as well. There's that common thing that's brought you together, not just the, the work or the, the transaction. you know, in my sense, creating a marketing strategy with someone, it goes much further than that. Whereas with an audience, I do think it's that single transaction, that wham, bam, thank you, ma'am. And, and, and we're done. And yes, you can repeat that transaction. but with the, the community, there's more, far more of a. You hear about community spirit and it's, it's, it's that kind of that there's a vibe going on with the community in a way that I just don't feel there is with an audience. Hmm.
Pippa:Yeah, you really made me think of, in fact, my A-D-H-D-D brain just went in a thousand different directions as a result of that because I, because one of the gifts and curses simultaneously of having a DHD is, that you can both be a hundred percent present for a conversation and be really, genuinely and truly. I was talking to a friend about this last night, genuine, truly involved in that conversation, but nonetheless, your brain is still going. All this and all that, and all the other,'cause it's just like. You can stop it. but there was several things that came to mind. One was a very random one, which is probably a brand who, would be much more on the kind of broadcasting side of things, which is Lucy and Yak, the dungaree people who do just about everything as well as dungarees these days, least of all, just dungarees. case in point, I'm actually wearing one of their t shirts. and I feel almost part of their community, but yet. the way that the nature of their marketing is such that it is a broadcast. It's not a, no one's welcomed me into a Facebook group. No one's invited me to be part of, but yet every time I have any interaction with them, particularly if we're very lucky to have an actual Lucy in the actual store in Bristol, which is just. joy. so every time I go in there, it's a shopping experience that feels like being part of community. Quite often people recognize you quite often. and you're never as a fat human, you're never made to feel, you know, nobody has a conversation about looking at 20 something sizes. There's no kind of, if anything, there's actually more fat folks, that you'll see wandering around in Lucy and Yak than there are. Folks that are of a, and I'm gonna, so advisedly use the phrase typical body size because actually so much of common society would refer to atypical body size of 16 to 18 now as being fat. So it's like, you know, let's, let's not have that debate. But, which is really interesting'cause I kind of almost feel like part of their community as a result of being involved in their brand. But yet the way that they, market themselves is very much one way.
Siobhan:Yeah, I don't disagree that I feel like community doesn't have a size to it there isn't a cap on community. And I think you've very much clearly articulated how a community can grow. exponentially, but still have that feeling of belonging to something, of having something in common. and that's brand values. Like you have bought into, you are aligned with Lucy and Yak's brand values. And that is what a community, ultimately, that's the thing that they all, that your community will all have in common is that, they're aligned with your values. and, as long as you continue to operate as a business owner within the parameters of your values, then you will continue to have people feel like they are part of your community, continued community, no matter how big you get.
Pippa:Yeah, absolutely. And there was something else that came to my ADHD brain now but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I actually think it might have been really making me think about, Brené Brown's work on Belonging. It's, it's a book that I've read and am currently, honest to God, it's on my nightstand again at the moment, probably for about the 10th, 12th, whatever time. it's such an easy read and so profound in equal measure, which, you know, is really significant but. there is definitely a huge part of the feeling part of a community is about belonging, right? And that doesn't mean about being in a community, well for me anyway, it definitely isn't about being in a community in some kind of homogenous blur of people that are all identical in some way. If anything actually, what I, probably respect, admire, value the most is feeling, being helped, being helped to feel part of a community where actually we're all as different, interestingly enough, but yet there's also a feeling of belonging in there. Tell me from a marketing point of view, I mean, I've gone totally off topic now, but fuck it, why not? From a marketing point of view, how is it that Brands, businesses, small, big, or otherwise, are able to foster that feeling of belonging where they're not creating a kind of homogenous group of followers. Because I've seen that happen many, many times and don't want any part of that at all. but yet everybody is united by that, that feeling of belonging.
Siobhan:think it's being quite broad. with your brand values, but not like throwing them open wide. I think that it, there's a, a balance that can be struck when creating brand values, which ensures that you are inclusive and, and that people can identify with, with any or all of your brand values without those values being so incredibly narrow as well. There is, I think that's where the, the magic lies in that feeling of, of somebody feeling an affinity towards a brand, but still feeling like they can be themselves. You know, it's, it's that, I think on one end of it, there's fandom, isn't there, where, you know, you, you end up emulating and looking like the, the band leader. then at the other end of it, there's. What we're discussing now is being part of, you know, aligning yourself with those brand values or seeing yourself played back from that brand. But having the freedom within that to kind of move and grow and yeah, I think, I think that's where brands can, can sort of make the difference and I see it in my corporate work that sometimes some brands are so nailed on to their brand values. that they lose focus of the fact that having some wiggle room within those is actually important to their community. They're so focused inward on the brand and what the brand means that they forget that actually the whole point of brand values is to to help those who you're trying to call in to to align with your brand to feel like they have an affinity. It becomes too inward looking. So I imagine that a brand where you feel but have your ability to have a little bit of ruffling. Your feathers is a brand that that's quite outward looking rather than inward looking.
Pippa:Yeah, I mean, from a personal point of view, I certainly like it when anything I'm part of, not just thinking about that from a sort of brand's point of view, challenges me a little bit. You know, that idea that we all live in our little nice safe echo chambers of information where we all share such tight values. You know, you and I are both fairly. Fairly, you know, not for us to say extreme left leaning, but certainly I'm leaning, you know, I've got a real lean going on in that direction. and so would be fairly simpatico if you like, in, in a number of, you know, values and views and things, I'm sure. I do love being in spaces where that gets challenged a little bit, right. You know, which does not mean I want to sit down with any great frequency with somebody that's got far right leanings and have a, enthusiastic debate with them because. Frankly, the chances of us meeting in some kind of compromise if your, if your values are extremely in one direction or another is going to be quite slim, right?
Siobhan:Yeah, definitely. The, the, yes. I mean, I think that's, that's why I'm here today because your, your marketing really spoke to me in terms of, okay, I can see that we're aligned on some things, but Oh, I'd not considered it from that way. And I'd not, not thought of it like that. That's something I'd like to explore actually. So it sort of tapped in at one level and then gave me the, yeah, that challenge or that, that. room for growth rather than that really very narrow, we're great, aren't we? Like we're, Oh, look at us. Let's hold up a mirror to each other. Yeah,
Pippa:my my swimming pal and I, Philippa, who gets named dropped in this podcast pretty frequently so hey Philippa hi because I know you'll be listening. Very frequently, and within total sarcasm, just for clarity, say, Oh, we're so fucking amazing, aren't we? We're so fucking amazing, we're always right, we're never wrong. You're right? Well, if you're right, I'm right, because we're always right together, aren't we? We are the correctest of correctest of people. and obviously it's totally meant in jest, but it's quite funny. okay. So let's bring us back to this notion of, audience versus community. So I think we understand a bit better what we're talking about in terms of the differences. And thank you for that. Why do you believe it's, well, I'm saying, why do you believe, I know this is what you believe actually, but people listening don't. So tell me, do you believe it's important for small businesses to build an audience versus a community, which is more valuable? why, why, why would they want to do one or the other?
Siobhan:I mean, I believe in community over audience. And I believe from a small business, no matter what size your business actually, I believe that community is the way forward rather than audience, because Especially for small businesses, I think a community, is a more cost effective if we're getting down to the bones of business and let's face it. We're all in business. I think it's a more cost effective way of making sales because the Holy Grail of marketing is to have advocates that you don't have to do any advertising, any marketing, if you have advocates, because they are your mouthpiece. They are your. advertising your marketing for you. They go around telling everyone how great you are and recommending you. And that is that for a small business owner who has a finite amount of marketing budget to have a, a band of advocates, is, is the Holy grail. And so that's why I really feel like community is an important aspect, from a marketing perspective for a small business owner. I also know that being in business can be bloody lonely sometimes. And so calling in a community alleviates elements of that, that loneliness. Yes, they might be your community. And so, you're not going to share all of your, your woes and your worries with them, but having that closer affinity with other. Small business owners, potentially, or certainly with, you know, with other humans, when you spend a lot of your day on your own, in your own head, working on your own, at your own kitchen table. I think having a community can really alleviate some of that, that sense of loneliness. And as I say, it's not, it's not about kind of tapping into those things. Bye. Bye. who you're trying to make sales with, with, you know, your, your woes and your worries. But it certainly makes you feel like you're not alone in this world. If you've got your little, your little harem, your little band,
Pippa:so, so much in there. I'm, I'm now trying to decide which direction to, to take the next thought process in. I think the one that really jumped out at me around there is, your statement around the Holy grail of marketing is to have advocates. And it made me think back to, my days in corporate, of running, customer engagement surveys and feedback, systems and structures and plans and things like that. And having many a conversation about net promoter score and. you know, the number of people in a, would you recommend question, that ticked nine or 10 out of 10, basically it's, it's sure just an easiest way of defining who your net promoters are, right? The people who would enthusiastically recommend you to somebody else, which is essentially in a much narrower sense, what you're talking about of, in terms of having advocates. So. If I was a small business owner and I was listening to this podcast, I would be thinking yes, Siobhan, I completely agree with you. having advocates is definitely the holy grail for my business. How the fuck do I create them? So, you know what, if we're having that conversation, let's have that conversation. How do, because I feel like we may be as business owners missing some of the really obvious. Ways of creating folk, you know, a whole network of advocates that are out there selling our business, but kind of, you know, what I mean.
Siobhan:I always say to start with friends and family, they are already in life, your advocates. Do they truly, really, honestly know what you do? I mean, my corporate gig is, my role is an account manager. So I am responsible for liaising between my creative team and my client's marketing team. I'm a conduit for want of a better phrase, but my own mom, genuinely my own mother believed that I did something in finance. for many years because I had the word account in my job title.
Pippa:Yeah,
Siobhan:And I use that as an example for, why it's important. To talk to your friends and your family about what it is that your small business does, because they have their own network as well outside of your, your family and friends network. And so let's say you are a, hypnotherapist and, you. aunt is talking to somebody at bridge club who's looking to, you know, break a habit. Like there's a moment that your aunt could suddenly be your salesperson for you and go, Oh, well, you know, have you considered hypnotherapy? My niece is a hypnotherapist. It's those little pockets of conversation that you, you couldn't possibly. Be in and across all as a small business owner, so your friends and your family, I always say are the absolute first port of call for building up advocacy, because they're already your advocates in life, right? I would hope, you know, dodgy family relationships, but on the whole, they want you to see you succeed, and they want to see you do well. Mm
Pippa:much every family I've ever known has some dodgy family relationships, no matter how seemingly undodgy, the general family dynamic seems from the outside. and also, I kind of, I'm fascinated by the first thought about, Starting with friends and family. And I'll tell you for why I frequently end up having conversations with clients who, echo something you said earlier about feeling quite alone and unsupported, in their businesses. And, often that's one of the reasons why they're, you know, either they've either joined us in one of our masterminds or they're working with one to one or whatever the scenario is. And interestingly, we end up often with the conclusion of really picking. what information we're prepared and happy to share with friends and family, and not for the reasons that you've just described at all. I can totally see. All of the value in, in friends and family being your greatest advocates. But I feel like there's also a, and it's got nothing to do with marketing. There is a flip side to that. And that is that the vast, well, kind of similarly to your mom, the vast majority of friends and family are not self employed where of course that's your mom and dad have an understanding of being self employed, obviously. don't get it more often than not, if you're a small, particularly service based business owner, chances are not only do they not get this whole running your own small business. They probably don't also understand. what the actual work is you do. If I was to talk about being a business coach to most of my friends and definitely my mum, they all just look at you and go, okay, sure. And this kind of the gloss, the eyes gloss over. And they also have an incredibly low folks that are not also self employed and incredibly low tolerance for risk and understanding the undulating nature of being self employed. And so. Whenever a family member says to you, Oh, how are things? It's like, okay, yeah, no, I'm going to go with the whole, yeah, doing great. How are you? How's so and so in the family? Because I can't go there because I am okay with the level of risk and ups and downs of being an, being a business, or I am most of the time anyway. but I know my mum's not, or I know my friend is not, and I can't go there because by the time we've had a 10 minute conversation about that, I'll be all over the place. Their shit will have become my shit, right?
Siobhan:Yes.
Pippa:So I feel like there's a little bit of a challenge there in terms of navigating that whole, how do you get them involved without that stuff? Because that stuff can be quite harmful from a business owner point of view because they bring their own worries and beliefs about, bringing enough business in and all that kind of stuff to you.
Siobhan:Yeah. So I think it's keeping it succinct and having that elevated pitch and magic sentence, the really succinct way of describing what you do, who you do it for, and what the outcomes are just having those like, you know, I work with to to do. X so that they can now feel like Y, you know, those are the really, that's kind of, do your friends and family genuinely know that part of what it is that you do? Yeah, they might not get that you're a coach. If you say coach, they might all, you know, automatically think of pyramid selling schemes, you know, like football. Yeah, good point. you know, there's a lot of distrust because there's a lot of lack of understanding of, you know, what it is that service based providers do. so just demystifying that in a really simple, succinct way, you know, before that glaze comes over, I think's the, the, yeah, the crux of it.
Pippa:Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Succinct elevator pitch for, for the, for the win. And get, and back yourself out of that conversation as quickly as you possibly can. Bring enthusiasm, but they do not, you know, some topics are off the table. Okay. So coming back to the, to the, how does one, how does one, how do you build advocates, in your business? Where would you go next?
Siobhan:So I would look at where your community is next. So where are they hanging out? Like you might be comfortable on Instagram, you might be comfortable on TikTok, but if you are a coach who is working with Women in senior positions in the corporate world. You probably want to be on LinkedIn like Not where you're comfortable. I know a lot of small business owners aren't but it's about selecting and hanging out in the places where your community are not where your Comfortable being and that that can be difficult. you know, they could be platforms that you're not familiar with. this is where getting support from someone like me or, others out there, you know, can, can help with that, but it's really. important to be where your community are going to be. Otherwise, you're just shouting into the void. You want to be where they are. And you need to identify where your community are most likely to be hanging out. And then once you've kind of got that, location, start building your communication strategy, based. on, on that platform and what it is that you want to say and what it is that you, you know, you want to, how you want to be calling those people in.
Pippa:Yeah, absolutely. And funnily enough, I haven't been on LinkedIn for a long time and I've had this conversation on the podcast before I ditched LinkedIn probably five or so years ago, having had a fairly substantial profile and what have you back then. Because as I was building my business, I firstly at the time had no belief that any of the folks that I wanted to talk to were going to be on LinkedIn anyway, which is totally untrue. Yeah, that's where I was at the time. and I felt so unbelievably negative towards my past career, or careers, plural. I wanted nothing to, and this is no shade on any of the individual humans, although there's some shade against one or two of them, But it was more to do with I just wanted nothing to do and it was a real kind of wanted to sever all ties with anything to do with before. So I did a full on, I didn't just cancel my profile because that felt too easy. I disconnected from every single person that I had connections with on LinkedIn, which is beyond petty. and then canceled my profile completely. And I've recently,
Siobhan:Belt and braces.
Pippa:extreme as to absolutely those trousers were well and truly held up. But I've restarted it again, probably two, three months ago. And I am definitely overdue to, build it out properly, but I'm frequently tagged into just because it exists now. And I've, you know, built connections with a few people. There's nothing on there. You wouldn't know who I was. If you found my profile at the moment, but I keep getting tagged into things and asked, you know, commented and things so I definitely need to wrap my head around that aspect of meeting my community where they're at because clearly some of them are there. Yeah. Oh
Siobhan:Exactly. I think we need to be where our community is for sure. And also, I mean, I've had a recent, like in the last week, experience whereby somebody who I know from the corporate world is on her second career and is actually, more aligned now with the type of person who I might work with. So actually severing ties isn't always the the correct way forward either because you just never know what's in somebody's future trajectory that your paths might cross and there might be. might be some opportunity for you to work together.
Pippa:no, I get that completely. I mean, my set my tie severing was very much of a get ditching the toxic nonsense. so, you know, for me, it was definitely the right shout at the time. So. I've got one final thought. I'm conscious that we are nudging right up against time, but, and that's around. And I'm sure there's, there's myriad other ways of, you know, building, these advocates we've been talking about. But what about folks that are actual clients? So this is not the building of the advocates before you've started. it strikes me that then there's something fairly significant from, having people that are going to go out there and rave and, you know, and recommend you and what have you. about they've worked with you, you know, for them to be able to write, you know, rave about you and recommend you, they've got to you in the first place. What are the important aspects of apart from being shit hot, what you do, I guess, the important aspects of, just facilitating that encouraging people to be, you know, those great net promoters that I talked about a minute ago.
Siobhan:So for me, this is what the corporate world would call, CRM. So customer relationship marketing. And this is, this is your keeping yourself front of mind. and, at the four thoughts of your current or past, clients, and that is your newsletters, you know, that keeping in touch stuff, you know, the, using social media socially. So if you see something that reminds you of a past client tagging them or, you know, sharing, like just, it's just that, yeah, keeping that relationship live. Keep it. We, I can't remember how many pieces of information in one kind of 12, 14 hour period that we're awake and consuming information for, the brain has to deal with, especially in this social media age, like it's constant information that we have to filter. And the brain shortcuts that, just in, in order to be able to cope. So if you can. Do little, little bits and pieces to keep yourself, front of mind there with newsletter with sharing articles with saw this thought of you type stuff. And it's, it's not that you get forgotten with your clients or your past clients. It's that, they have so many. Messages thrown at them in a daily basis that any, any little thing that you can do to, to help keep yourself up there and, and, front of mind is going to be incredibly useful.
Pippa:Yeah, okay. I, it strikes me that there's, you know, I kind of said it slightly flippantly but when I asked you the question around, you know, apart from being shit hot at what you do, but I feel like there's an important piece in there that might not necessarily live in marketing per se. But client management, but yes, management of that relationship as well, is so unbelievably important. So if you are a, yeah, okay, so I'm a coach, right? So if you are a coach, how does that client experience working with you? How easy is it for them to, you know, rave about you and recommend you? How much do you value their feedback? Do you seek their feedback? Do you actually genuinely want their feedback as opposed to, are you asking for a testimonial? Because those are two very different things. are you, you know, are you personally keeping in touch? So Not doing the whole, you know, I send an email out every three months and it goes out going, hi, hey, how are you? Or marketing newsletters. Do you, do you tag them, like you said, in social media and, you know, or pop them a note or, you know, do you remember their kids names, their husband's names, their wife, you know, all of those kinds of things. But apart from that, all those things, I guess, making you a quote unquote good human. that shit matters, right? And if you are trying to build a relationship where people not only get from you a successful delivery of the service that they paid you for, but they also feel valued and like they belong, we're back to this community piece, that they would want to, you know, that they would stand on a, you know, on a, on a roof and shout your name loudly, metaphorically speaking, that stuff feels just as important as all of the perhaps more traditionally marketing y stuff.
Siobhan:Oh, it's hugely important because Marketing is about creating an emotional connection with someone and what you've just described are all of the human ways that we create emotional connections with one another. So it's incredibly important and it's so very easy to do because it's not a marketing tactic that you need to learn how to do, it's the fundamentals of being a human being.
Pippa:yeah, human, you know, good human relationships.
Siobhan:exactly. Yeah,
Pippa:What a nice place to finish on.
Siobhan:indeed.
Pippa:I'm conscious of time. I'm conscious of your time. I know you've got the, a day ahead of you in terms of work. So, to wrap us up, tell us where people can find you online. And have you got anything fun by way of any workshops or freebies or anything like that you'd like to share that would be great for anybody listening?
Siobhan:Cool. So yes, I, you can find me@theselittlefish.com or come and find me on Instagram again, these little fish. and what you might want to do if you come and find me on my website or on my Instagram, is to sign up to my monthly newsletter, which is, going back to that idea of me being a conduit in my, in my role and it's taking, Marketing trends from the big corporate world of marketing, informing small business owners about upcoming trends, but translating those into what that means for the small business owner and some kind of practical hints and tips on how you could consider, implementing, those trends from the big corporate world for you as a small business owner in your marketing.
Pippa:I'm incredibly excited for, and remind me what it's called.
Siobhan:Tales from the fish tank.
Pippa:it is. I think it's brilliant. Well, I, well, I, I just love it when you have a brand name that has the opportunity for so many. metaphors and just kind of all of this fun around, you know, linking it back to the, linking it back to the name. I think that's great. Siobhan, thank you so much.
Siobhan:Thank you Pippa, it's been a wonderful, wonderful chat.
Pippa:Yeah, absolutely. But we, I think we've been trying to do this for probably six months, haven't we?
Siobhan:We have, yes. Finally, cracked it.
Pippa:we did, nailed it. Tick the list. We're going to have to try and find a way to bring you back at some point as well. So, keep that in mind.
Siobhan:Will do, absolutely my love,
Pippa:anyway, that's all for this week, folks. we will see you again next week for more disobedient business fuckery and messing with the status quo. We will see you next Tuesday