Disobedient Podcast Guesting with Natalie Koussa

If visibility has always felt performative, and "growing your audience" makes you want to take a shower... this episode is for you!

Join Pippa and Natalie for this episode to discover how you can lead with integrity, grow your impact by speaking on podcasts.

We dive into...
🎙️ who podcast guesting is an amazing fit for, and what growing your business through podcast guesting can look like
🎙️ how to create your unique speaker topics, your way
🎙️ Natalie's 80/20 'rule' of pitching - it takes pitching from gross to generous, so it feels great for the host, and for you.

About Natalie
Natalie Koussa is a messaging coach and Podcast Guesting Strategist who helps industry changemakers create their fully expressed, fully booked business. She’s the creator of the Luminous Mastermind, and The Speakeasy - a group programme which supports entrepreneurs to grow their impact, and their income, by speaking on podcasts.

Where to Find Natalie
Online: nataliekoussa.com
Instagram: @natalikoussa_

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Transcript

Pippa: 0:30

Welcome back to the Disobedient Business podcast. We have a really, really cool episode for you today. I am joined by Natalie who is gonna be talking to us about disobedient podcast guesting today. Natalie, welcome. Welcome.

Natalie: 0:47

Thank you so much, Kita. We were just talking about how we've followed each other on the Internet, and I'm a lover of your work. So thank you for having me here today. It's glad to be here.

Pippa: 0:56

Oh, listen. Yeah. It's absolutely my pleasure, and it always fascinates me when, you end up talking to somebody in real life even though I know we're on a screen at the moment, And you can't for the life if you remember where you met. You know that you know each other somehow, but you're just not quite sure how. Right?

Natalie: 1:10

Magic of those online streets.

Pippa: 1:12

isn't it just? Isn't it? Well, so before we get too much into podcast guesting, because this is the topic Very close to my heart, and, I can't wait to get into it with you. But I'd love to know just a little bit about you first. What can you tell me about Your business journey up until now, the ups and the downs. Whatever it is you'd like to share, go wild.

Natalie: 1:32

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So Well, we were chatting to before you were asking where in the UK I'm from. I'm sorry. I'm from the UK. I'm from but not. I got whisked over to Ireland a few years ago I'm Irish guy. I've got a bit of Dublin now, which is really fantastic here. I'd recommend visiting. If anyone's listening, there's never been. So I've been in business a few years now. There's been some ups and downs. We'll probably talk about one of the downs, which is how I discovered Podcast guesting, how it changed my business, how I started supporting clients to grow their businesses by speaking on podcasts. but, Essentially, I used to be director of partnerships for a nonprofit that was all about messaging and collaborations and influencing and really taking a stand for helping to create the world we wanted to see. So I've brought all of those skills and ethos into my business. I help people with their manifesto messaging, with their sales messaging. It's really intentional audience growth, all that good stuff.

Pippa: 2:28

Well, that sounds amazing. I love this notion of Creating the world that they want to see. And it's it's really interesting because it's one of those really kind of lofty goals. Right? But, you know and to have a business that you run for yourself, you don't have to have lofty goals. Right? Your business is every bit as valid if you don't have lofty goals. But I've got a secret little, love for those folks that entertain the notion that whatever teeny tiny percentage that we put out into the world, That we are in some way, shape, or form shaping the world to be better in a little bit some way. Right?

Natalie: 3:00

I really hope so. Yeah. I mean, I agree. You don't have to have those goals. I think small business could be completely legit without them. But if you do have them, what a fucking incredible opportunity it is to have your own business, make your own money, make your own decisions about Where that money flows, who you work with, who you're amplifying the world. It's a real privilege. I love it. She's so lucky. Every night, we also do

Pippa: 3:28

You are most definitely preaching to the choir there, my friend. Okay. So let's get into it. you talk about the Hour of podcasting. And, kind of possibly rewinding you back to that That down moment, which I think might be what you were referring to. I'd love to ask you to share a little bit about how you arrived at podcast guesting As being, so powerful, so much so that you've now gone to this to be one of the things that you teach folks.

Natalie: 3:55

Yeah. I'd love to share So When I started my business, I think I did what so many of us do, and it was the obedient phase, I suppose, in in is the way that you would say it. And I just kept hearing over and over and over again, business is a numbers game. You're only gonna gonna convert one to 2 percent of people in your world. It's all about audience growth. You need an email list of 500 people before you start doing anything. And I just believe people because They had a thriving business. I was brand new, so I wouldn't know in in loads of ways. And I spent the first few months of being in business Hi. So I'm writing content for Instagram. Really trying to get myself out there. Really trying to grow an audience without really truly understanding what that meant what good would look like. And if I'm being honest, I was just making my money. But all of this effort was going into very little impact In terms of pay paying clients, but I think also in terms of, like, just actual impacts in in the world. You know? So and this was back in 20 2one. I was like, okay. Somebody's not working. Let me log off Instagram. Let me take social media off my phone, And let me go back to what I actually know how to do, which is really simple sales strategies, relationship building where I actually really care about each other, and and people can kind of sense the difference. It's not just little squares going along, You know, going going over a screen. And over that month, they were my first podcasts that I spoke on, And I made as much in that month as I've made in the 9 months previous in in my business.

Pippa: 5:38

Yeah.

Natalie: 5:40

It was, yeah, it was my first batch of sales month. And I was like, okay. This feels really good. I've still only got a few people in my world, But they're the right people. They're brilliant clients. They're going on to do great things, getting great results. So ever since then I mean, I still have a tiny, tiny, tiny audience, but it really works for me. so yeah. So ever since then, I've been a massive fan. More than a fan, actually, I've been reliant on podcast guesting as a way of growing my business, and I've gone all in on helping others do the same. It's just Such a fabulous way of honing your messaging, getting known for your thing, calling in clients, and also creating impact way beyond the people who are actually going to work with you. And I just love that combination.

Pippa: 6:28

Yeah. That last piece, I mean, so much juice in what you just said. but that last piece really grabs me by by the the short and curly, so to speak, Which is that the wonderful power of being on a podcast, hosting or guesting to be fair, but obviously the additional power as a result of guesting, Is that regardless of what marketing efforts it does or doesn't produce for your business, is the impact that it gets to have out in the world? It's really it fascinates me. the the host that we use to host our podcast, like most, does a sort of weekly, Here's how many people have downloaded your podcast in the last week type update, which I probably should unsubscribe to because it's an unnecessary email, but hey. And it fascinates me that, at time of listening, people will be listening to this at the beginning of 20 24. we haven't had any episodes in the second half of 20 23, we decided to put the podcast on a bit of a hiatus. And still people come through and new people come through and start to listen to episodes that out there for over 6 months. Right? That amazes me. Every time it doesn't matter what the numbers are. Every time it comes through, I kinda think to myself, oh, that's interesting. People are still listening.

Natalie: 7:30

Yeah. I love it. You you record it once and then people just keep finding a podcast. And podcast listeners are really loyal. Oh, you you know that it's gonna be way way better than that I know from being a podcast listener, The even when I was making the decision to start my own business, and I'd stand on the on the platform for my commute going into my daily job, I've had business podcasts in my ears thinking, okay. Let me give myself some evidence so I can do this thing. Let me see what's out there. How are people doing it? What what kinds of ideas are out there? And it was just such an intimate and, That's really encouraging way to to start, like, thinking about, okay. Cool. What are the skills that I could go out there with with with my own business. You know?

Pippa: 8:20

Absolute oh, no. Absolutely. And I I'll tell you what. I'm gonna ask you a cheeky question.

Natalie: 8:26

Love it.

Pippa: 8:28

I'm really curious because I know if I was sitting in the shoes of that business owner that you just described, kind of fairly early on, Absorbing all the goodness that you can, you know, hope hopefully, she says as a, you know, disobedient business coach, you know, filtering out some of the, you know, shit Shoulds and all the rest of it and just try absorbing the things that work for you, which sadly, the vast majority of folks in the earlier stages don't do a great job of, which is sad. But I would be sitting there thinking, well, that's wonderful. I can go do all of the things around pitching or not pitching and all the rest of it, which we'll get on we'll we'll get on to you today, I'm sure. But how does it actually work? So I show up as a guest, you know, as a as a strategy. So I show up as a guest. I share my Let's go with the phrase signature topic for argument's sake. and that that gets publicized. I get some graphics. I go out and publicize it. Podcast host publicizes it. It lives out there in perpetuity, but how does it work? So that episode goes out there. Should I be as that relatively new business owner be sitting there waiting for my, you know, the the bell the bell to start ringing on the front door and I'll be mowed down by thousands of clients? Or So I suppose I I'm asking that kind of cause and effect question that goes right. So I've guessed it on the podcast. What is the possibility or the potential for what will happen And for that translating from I just did the thing to it being an actual marketing strategy.

Natalie: 9:52

I love this

Pippa: 9:53

It's a good question, isn't it? I thought

Natalie: 9:55

a great question. Yeah. Definitely don't edit it. It's a good question. it depends on the quality of your messaging.

Pippa: 10:01

Okay. Nice.

Natalie: 10:03

It's my my point of view and what I've seen with myself and my clients. So if you speak on a podcast, And you give tons of value. And by value, I don't necessarily mean how tos or tips and tricks. It can be making people laugh. It can be telling stories that The listeners relate to and help them experience themselves or the world in a different way. Can be all of that kind of stuff includes you know, is included in giving value. If you go and do that and the strength of your messaging is enough that listeners get this really intimate sense of who you are, what you do and how you can help them specifically, your calling points from the podcast interviews. It might not be the second That podcast goes live, but it's it's not a kind of oh, maybe it'll happen to me. If your messaging is on point And you're speaking about something with congruence and with confidence, and people can feel that you are really living the topic that that you are speaking about, people will go and die. And the amazing thing about speaking on podcasts is people skip You'll follow-up for one of the better way of saying that. So so some people of course, they'll they'll follow you on social media or join your email list and not be in your Other people and I always say your interviews are the freely. Other people won't need any of that. They'll be listening to you, and we'll be like, they're the one for me. They're the person I've been looking forward to helping with this thing, and they'll just DM you or book a sales call or buy your thing directly. So Yeah. I mean, that's that's the beauty of it. That's what I see happening.

Pippa: 11:46

I couldn't agree more. I mean, I've both done that As a podcast listener, I have I mean, to be fair, there were there's probably a few caveats I would add to my the thing I'm about to say, which is I was listening to somebody on a podcast that I already had that kind of one of again, For one of a better phrase, know, like, and trust factor With the podcast host. So to a to an extent, there's that kind of, trust by association vibe going on, If you like, you know, that person that I know quite well in this particular case, has invited this person onto their so they they must be pretty decent then. but, no, I have literally reached out whilst listening to a podcast and, said to somebody, I need to work with you. What availability have you got? And I've had similar happen the other way around. So

Natalie: 12:34

Same for me both ways around. And, actually, it was one of the reasons I started speaking on podcasts. Was in that awful beginning phase where I couldn't you know, I was just trying to catch my groove. I thought to myself, How do I enjoy buying from other people? And it wasn't being in this massive audience and getting into a funnel and having a trip where I'm gonna have to watch a master class before we could get to the net. I just wanted to know how can I work with you? And some people really like that longer sales process, so we need to have that there as well. I'm I'm not suggesting Just scrap everything else you're doing, go and speak on podcast, and that might be the only thing. Like, of course, there needs to be foundations in your business and different ways of of nurturing potential clients. But when I was thinking to myself, how do I love buying from people? Who have I worked with But they did great work, and they turned out to be who I thought they were. And quite a few of them, I've heard them on a podcast initially.

Pippa: 13:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I love that you touched upon the fact that it can't be the be all and end all there because of the things that jumped out at me, and you and I were talking about this before we pressed record around just the experience of booking this podcast and, you know, the communication, all that kind of stuff. Don't don't don't decide you're gonna go off and do masses of podcast guesting, and then have people hit a wall when they try and get in touch with you. You know, have something. You don't have to be a systems genius, but have something set up that people don't fall into some kind of black hole when it comes to wanting to book a chat or have a with you on social media. You know, monitor your DMs or have a book a chat link that actually works and is, you know, is present because this In in this it's almost worst for somebody to get really excited about getting in touch with someone as a result of listening to a podcast and then falling down a hole and being so disappointed. It's more disappointing to be, let down in that way by someone you had such high hopes for than it is for somebody just kinda found on social media and just thought, oh, I'll have a punt and have a look at that.

Natalie: 15:24

Yeah. I love that you said that. I think Even just asking so this is where at you know, at the end of your interviews, the head says, thanks so much for being here. How can people find you? Have a response ready. Know where you would like to invite people to. And if you don't have the website yet, if you don't have Yeah. I don't know. But, you know, everything that you need set up there, just ask people to DM you on Instagram. That's great. That will do. And then as you start building out freebies that that go with particular offers or a wait list or an email list that you know that It's really valuable when you email people regularly, then I would suggest that you email people there.

Pippa: 16:05

Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, it's been so juicy so far. We haven't even really got into it yet. Okay. Cool. So it strikes me that podcast guesting is possibly not for everyone, um, because if it was, there'd be There'd be a lot of podcast guests out there. who or why or kind of what kind of filter Process would you use to determine whether someone or something was a great fit for featuring on podcast?

Natalie: 16:38

Yeah. So The very first thing is, do you love having conversations with people you don't know very well about your work or about your point of view. If you love it, you will become even if you're not already, you will become a really brilliant, memorable podcast guest. You, for sure, have that set of skills within you. If the thought of having a conversation with somebody you don't know And it being recorded and you're talking about your work fills you with dread. Maybe it's not for you or maybe it's not for you right now. But, you know, you you could grow into it. Who knows? So the people I see doing amazingly with podcast guesting, usually So their work is either nuanced, and they really want to share that nuance. So they've got a nuanced point of view or A way of seeing the world that isn't just standard or, you know, business as usual in whatever they do. And, oh, they do something a little bit weird, or they do a normal thing in a slightly weird way. It works brilliantly for that. So If you think that you know, if you're on social media, any short form content to for somebody to be able to get to know you in the set and your work in the same way that they would by seeing you on Instagram or even by reading emails. It's just gonna take a lot longer. It's gonna take a lot more content. Whereas, you know what it's like if I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, you are a As less now, so you really get this, the intimacy of you know, maybe you're out walking right now. Maybe you're folding the laundry. Maybe you're have to pick up the kids from school. I don't know. Like but hit that in your ears in your day. And that's what your listeners What experience when you speak on podcasts? And there's just that

Pippa: 18:29

boggles what the mind boggles what they could be doing. Right?

Natalie: 18:34

Well, let me have a bedroom

Pippa: 18:37

If you're doing that, stop

Natalie: 18:38

sit.

Pippa: 18:41

Yeah. I love that. I love everything about that. And I I would Say, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Podcast guest isn't for everybody, and there are some people who truly their medium for, Sharing their thoughts and their feelings and their, their work and their nuance with the world is through the written word, and that is totally cool. It is because play to your strengths. Right? But I think there's a lot of people that might count themselves out of podcast guesting just because of confidence or just because they haven't quite got their Messaging quite, you know, quite as polished. Maybe not nailed, but not just not as polished as they'd like it to be. And I think my take on that would probably be just just, you know, get the shit ones out of the way, and that's just that's gonna sound so but why would I want to record a podcast a shit podcast interview? Well, when we first started the if I went back to listen to the first 2 or 3 episodes of the disobedient business podcast, now I'd cry. They were so bad. But Lucy and I sat down at the beginning, and we both agreed we had to get the shit ones out of the way because recording podcast wasn't gonna get good Until we recorded podcasts. So just accept that, you know, you might not sound like the most Confident. You might not have allowed the full personality to shine through. Right? You might not be crushing it, so to speak, yet. But that doesn't necessarily mean that podcast guesting is not you, would you agree?

Natalie: 20:03

Yeah. Totally. And, also, there were really simple things you can do to yourself to show up with confidence.

Pippa: 20:09

Oh, on then. Go on. Go on, Cher Cher.

Natalie: 20:11

Well, so that if you're gonna do one thing, I would Focus onen 1 core conversation topic. And the reason I call them core conversation topics instead of speaking topics is a reminder that this is a conversation. The host wants you to sound great because the host has spent all of his time developing this podcast with listeners that are loyal, and it's an asset for their business. So they're not gonna invite you on and let you sound crap. They're just not gonna do it. They're gonna edit at They're gonna ask you great questions. They're gonna do everything in their power to help you feel comfortable and Share all the goodness. So if you if you think, oh, I do have stuff to share, but or I just don't feel confident enough, Take your time and think about one core conversation topic. What's one topic that maybe you talk about all day every day with your clients? Maybe you think about it all the time, but you've got tons of personal examples to share. You only need one thing to talk about. And then within that topic, think of just a few examples that you would love to share and have some questions. And then bonus, If you want to, put each of those examples on a post it note. Just a couple of words, not not like a whole paragraph you attempted to read. And then just have a few post it notes in front of me. No one will ever see. No one will know. So that when the host asks you a question, if you get in that, Oh, panic. Ah, I kind of been just glance at Post It Now and think, great. Let me just tell that story, and you're off.

Pippa: 21:40

Oh, Yeah. 2. Absolutely. And listen. You know what? The firstly, the the podcast Host's job is to draw the bet. That's literally what they're there for. Right? It's to draw the best out of the the the guests that they're are doing. I'll let the listeners be the judge of whether I've done a decent job or not today. and not very rarely. I mean, listen. You know, no one no one's seeing this is gonna see this, but Natalie will. Here we go. Pippa's Pippa's reminder notes for today, which is if Pippa runs out of things to say, here's some prompts to to keep the conversation going. Needed them because this has been such a great conversation, but I'd never go into a podcast recording without them because I feel like host or guest Having a little bit of a comfort blanket so that allows you to feel more settled in yourself when you show up to a recording. Right?

Natalie: 22:23

Yeah. I love that. I I had a thing happen just a little while ago, which actually just might be really helpful to people if I share it now, which is I was in the middle of a podcast interview. The host asked me this brilliant question, and it I was thinking about the topic in just a bit of a different way to normal. And I'm sorry in my head that halfway through my response, I just literally forgot what I was saying. She's completely just run out of words. Didn't know what I was gonna say. And do you know what happened? I said, oh my god. I'm so sorry. We both laughed. She asked me the question again. I answered it really well. They edited out the bits. The listeners will never know. Like, hosts are not there to be like, uh-huh. You know, you you did it wrong. You know? Like, it's just not

Pippa: 23:07

Wow.

Natalie: 23:08

That's just never ever gonna happen. They're on your side. You're a team.

Pippa: 23:12

I love that. I love that so much. And, actually, you know what? Sidebar, which has got nothing to do with podcast hosting, but I feel like it fits here. I was having a conversation with someone who should remain nameless, but, not a business owner there employed, who were going for a job interview. And this particular person is, both dyslexic and has ADHD and was fretting a lot about what they were gonna be asked, there was gonna be a practical exercise, and so on and so forth. And we both came to the conclusion that In the spirit of, possible adjustments, if you like, from a workplace point of view, that they would speak to the person that was Hosting the interview and ask for the questions in advance and ask for a bit more time for the practical exercise or some idea of what the practical exercise might be in advance. And I feel like that's a really good so as a result, that interview was so much easier on them because they weren't hyper anxious, going into the interview, because of just That plays into many, many dyslexia and and ADHD challenges. And I feel like regardless of whether or not you're a neurodiverse human or not, The same applies here. If you're relatively new to, you know, guesting on podcast or anything that's kind of in this sort of wheelhouse, Reaching out to the host and saying, I'm I'm relatively new to this. I'm feeling quite anxious about the whole thing. I really want to be able to do it justice. Is there any way you could share with me some of the things that you'd like to talk about on the episode so that I could do a little bit of preparation in advance? Boom. Any really great podcast host will be delighted that you're interested enough to bother, and you'll feel so much less Just terrified, gapping into the recording. Right?

Natalie: 24:46

Yeah. I love that. yeah, hosts do all sorts of different things. So you can ask to see Questions. You can ask if you can suggest questions. You can say, you know, would you like me to write your list of questions? And probably they're gonna say yeah because it makes their life so much easier. Some hosts, set up a time before the interview to have a chat. Some hosts will just extend the time slightly so you can just have a chat and get to know each other before we start. It's yeah. You know, they're They're just the other person. I know there's a bit of a power differential maybe if, you know, you're pitching or asking to be on somebody's Podcasting it's, you know, their kind of space that you're coming into. But, I mean, we just keep coming back to this. They're just another person. They want you to do really well.

Pippa: 25:33

Yep.

Natalie: 25:34

Just ask them for what you need and be honest, and make a bit of a joke out of it if you want to. You're like, oh my god. I I bet you can remember when you started Your podcast that, you know, that you're feeling nervous, I'm feeling right about now. you know, kinda lean on it a bit.

Pippa: 25:47

Yeah. And you know what? Let's do a little, a tiny behind the scenes. So we favor that latter example that you gave me, which is we book the podcast interviews out for an hour. We rarely record for more than about 35 minutes. It just gives us plenty of wriggle room, to go over a bit, for edits, and for a chat at the beginning. So in in our chat at the beginning, both of us had a conversation about the fact that we're entirely snotty, bit croaky, probably gonna have to mute a bit. one of us needed to go for a pee. Just there's there was a whole a whole entirely human thing. No power differential at all. Just a right. Let's just get comfortable before we press the record button and go into this thing. That's what you should expect when you appear on a podcast episode.

Natalie: 26:29

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And you do it so well, Diva. I I wanna say that as well because that was part of the chat that I was saying that the The whole way that you set up the interviews and how you let your guests know what's happening at every stage is I mean, mean, I've spoken a lot of podcasts by now, and you're you really stand out as being so supportive throughout the whole process. So, Yeah. I don't know. I just wanted to let everyone listening know, but you walk your talk with it.

Pippa: 26:58

I'm blushing now. No. Thanks. okay. So let's Circle back, So, to speak. the big p question, to pitch or not to pitch? That is the question. Now I don't imagine for one minute you're gonna say to me, no. No. Don't pitch. Just wait for all those podcast opportunities to fall in your lap. But I have I'm pretty certain that you're gonna have some views on Pitching and the how and what have you. So so tell me, what are your thoughts around pitching?

Natalie: 27:25

So, yeah, definitely pitch. Definitely go for the opportunities that you want. The best case scenario is you get a yes. You get to Speaking and record with them and get featured on the podcast. Amazing. Even in the worst case scenario, maybe you get a note that you started a connection With that host, they know who you are now. They might have you in mind for a future season. And even if not, they're they're just somebody else in your world. You never know what can happen by just growing a really strong network around your business. And, also, It's amazing to get invited on podcasts. So when I'm teaching people to speak on podcasts, The first stage that I always tell people to do when they're thinking about pitching is have a think about your network. Who do you know that has got a podcast that might love to have you on? Start there. So, sure, it's maybe not that exactly asked you to be on, But if you're already friends or you're already you know, you you know each other in some way, you have some sort of relationship, You don't have to send a formal pitch. You can just DM them or Vox them or however it is that you normally speak to them, and just have a conversation about, hey. I'd love to speak on your podcast. Could we have a chat about it? And that can be a really good way. And then I think there's this beginning bit where you you tend to have to pitch for almost all of your interviews. And then you start becoming a bit better known and a bit better networked, And that's when the invitation start coming in, and that's the real sweet spot.

Pippa: 29:02

Yeah. Absolutely. Have you had any experience with these kind of Facebook groups, community groups, I think most of them are on Facebook, but, you know, where wherever it is they're hosted. I can think of one that's got something like 37000 Members in it, which just utterly bamboozles my brain, which is essentially podcast collaboration. So, you know, the entire group is full of Looking for a guest or I want to be a guest. Now little bit like the dating pool and the man woman ratio or depending on your particular persuasion from a from that Point of view is almost never balanced. I certainly have seen in those groups that there's a hell of a lot more people that go, I'd like to be a podcast guest than there are people going, I'd like a podcast guest. But have you found any real benefits from those kind of communities?

Natalie: 29:46

I'm not a fan at

Pippa: 29:48

No. I'll be honest.

Natalie: 29:49

The no. The and I've had a few clients that have tried them and have pronounced my own thinking, Which and and this is no disrespect at all to people that put a ton of effort into hosting those communities. But what I see is that because of the sheer numbers, it's very kind of spray and pray. You know? Like, there's it's the opposite of taking a really intentional approach to podcasting. The only clients that I do recommend sometimes use those kinds of matching groups are authors. If they literally they just need numbers and numbers of podcasts, they're willing to speak on pretty much any podcast that will have them. It's all about building a platform. It's all about demonstrating to the publisher, you know, numbers of people. I think that, you know, I've seen success with that. I I think that could be great. But if you are a service based business owner and you need to to work with, what, like, 50 People a year at at the kind of more generous side. If you have any masterminds and and group programs, you don't need and this goes back to what we're talking about at the beginning. Right? You don't need an audience of thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people. You're gonna grow your your business so much more quickly if you get super intentional about which podcasts you're speaking on, that their listeners are likely to be your future clients. So taking the time to do the research, To develop those relationships, to send the pictures is yeah. Sure. It might feel more painful. You know, it's not that kind of dopamine hit in in the short term. But in the long term, it's actually gonna grow your business. You're you're gonna see the results that you want.

Pippa: 31:26

Yeah. Absolutely. No. I love that. I have heard you. I'm trying to remember where I've seen this now, But I've heard you talking about your kind of 80 20 rule with podcast pitching, and I have absolutely no idea what your 80 20 rule is. And I'm hoping that you'll tell me, I'll be dead excited about

Natalie: 31:44

I'd love to. Yeah. So people probably heard of the 80 20 rule of productivity. You know, 20 percent of of what we do It's 80 percent of your results. And I've just kind of stolen that idea and applied it to pictures to help describe the mindset shift that I think Most people or lots of people at least need to go through when they start pitching. So when people start pitching and they say to me, I'm just so scared to I send. Oh, I'm just so overthinking what's getting the pitch. I know 99 times out of a hundred. It's because all of their focus is on themselves. What if I don't get this opportunity? What if I'm embarrassed? What if and that's I'm not criticizing that at all. It is such a normal human experience. I've had it. It it's so normal. But what they're doing is they're putting 80 percent of the focus in their picture themselves. I really need to prove myself. I need to show that I'm gonna be brilliant to talk about this thing, And only 20 percent of the space is left for the host and their listeners. So if you flip that, if you put 80 percent of your focus in your pitch on the host, but even more importantly, this is the bit that most people miss, their listeners. And then you just back it up with another 20 percent of here's my credibility. Here's why, you know, I can talk about this thing. Here are the places I've been featured. Those kind of little snippets for 20 percent, and 80 percent is Here's where I think your listeners might love this conversation. Here are the kinds of things that I can share that are gonna help your listeners in these specific ways. Then you're not gonna be scared to press send. You're gonna be delighted. You're gonna be, oh, I gotta can't wait till I see this pitch. And when the host gets the pitch, It's gonna shine through that you've really taken the time to know them, to know your listener, to think about how you can add value. And you just increase your chances of getting yes

Pippa: 33:44

Yeah.

Natalie: 33:45

exponentially.

Pippa: 33:46

Yeah. And I'll tell you what preparation is so key to that. Right? So the, the vast majority of podcasts I've been on, weirdly enough, I've been invited to, but I have pitched a handful. And we we host a podcast, obviously. We are it's a bit meta. We are on it right now, and we have a podcast pitch form. So Preparation, if you want to pitch for for podcast, is have your own snippets of text and The things that matter in your, you know, signature topics or whatever whatever language you want to use ready because a lot of the Time. You're not it's a little bit like well, I'm gonna use the applying for a job analogy again. It's a little bit applying for a job. And some companies would be happy to receive a CV. Right? But a decent percentage these days will have a form that they want you to squeeze your answers into their format so it's easy for them to digest. The same goes for a lot of podcasts. We have a form that, you know, we prioritize it being super simple and gives people an opportunity to shine, Rather than having to, you know, absorb a thousand different relatively complicated ways of different people pitching. And well, I mean, it Works reasonably well because you're here. You filled out the form.

Natalie: 34:56

I love the format. I thought it great.

Pippa: 34:59

of the things I love actually you saying about adding value, which did make me chuckle and is always super appreciated, so, absolutely no shade, Was that you wrote a a potential title and some draft show notes in your pitch, which I thought was absolutely brilliant. It was, like, fantastic. That's given me a starter for one0 for the show notes. That will save me a lot of time writing it all down. So thanks for that. Appreciate that.

Natalie: 35:21

It's because so you ask for a potential title in your form, don't you? And I love giving people just a little bit extra than than what they've asked for. And one of the things I always say to my clients is Think about your pitch from the perspective of the podcast host and their team. And if they read your pitch and they can already see the title and the show notes flying out of the pitch, It's gonna be such an easy yes for them. So I just walked my walk. it I made me giggle as I was writing. It was like, I don't know that we do it in in exactly that way. But yeah. May maybe stand out. Right?

Pippa: 35:58

So last last couple of thoughts. I suppose my last couple of thoughts would be where to Start with sort of part a of the last thought. And the second part is while you're doing the starting piece, the kind of the best Thing to do to go about finding those first opportunities to cut your teeth on.

Natalie: 36:16

Yeah. So if you are brand new and starting out, I would start by creating one core conversation topic. So one thing that you feel really confident about talking about that will clearly add value to the listeners in some way And think about what I call moments, which are those kind of micro examples. And the kinds of moments that work really well are personal stories, Stories about working with clients, client results, mindset shifts. Anything in in that kind of space is gonna really bring what you're saying to life. so start there. Have have just one core conversation topic, And then start with your network. Literally map out. Like, get a whiteboard or a bit of paper, and really start thinking out, okay. What are the, like, the hubs in in my networks? By hubs, I mean, things like, what group coaching programs have I been part of? Or what networks my parts are, or who am I friends with on Instagram or wherever you hang out? And then just start thinking, okay, who's got a podcast Or who's connected to something with a podcast? just start having those chats with people saying, hey. I'd love to speak on your podcast. What do you think? Could we have a chat about it? And before you know it, if you do those 2 things, you'll probably have a few interviews under your belt. And then you can see if you wanna get super strategic about it and go all in, you can. If what you're doing is working for you, amazing. Keep going. Or it can just be an experiment, And we can go off to do whatever the next thing is for you.

Pippa: 37:47

Fantastic. Thank you. And I think I saw unless I'm making this up, which is every bit possible, and we can edit it out. If that's the case, Did did I see a a Natalie podcast on the horizon that's coming

Natalie: 37:59

is one on the horizon. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Probably New Year.

Pippa: 38:04

Okay. Cool. Nice.

Natalie: 38:06

Yeah.

Pippa: 38:07

Okay. This has just been, like I've loved this conversation. I hope everybody listening, has really enjoyed it as well and are rushing off to start making a list of their core conversation topics and the first few pods that they're gonna, to pitch to. So, uh, let me ask you the obvious end of question, which we were talking about a few minutes ago in terms of, people having an answer ready for that. So where can people find you? Where where would you like them to reach out? What would you like them to see most?

Natalie: 38:34

Yeah. So there are 2 places. The first is if you wanna join my email list, that's where all good stuff happens. Go to my Website should be showing notes. It's just nancy kousa dot com. I've got an email series called me on notes, and it's all about becoming Growing your fully expressed, fully booked business. And I'm there week after week, rain or shine. So that's, that's the best place to keep in touch with me. And if you want support speaking on podcasts, come on over and have a look at the Speakeasy, which is my group program all about growing your business By speaking to other people's podcasts.

Pippa: 39:10

Amazing. And just for the, avoidance of any kind of doubt, that's that's Kousa, k o u, double s, a. Right?

Natalie: 39:18

Yeah. Thank

Pippa: 39:18

Cool. Perfect. Thank you so much for joining me today. I have enjoyed this conversation immeasurably. I hope it's been fun for you. too.

Natalie: 39:27

I've loved it. Thank you for having me.

Pippa: 39:29

No. You're so welcome. that's all for this week, folks. join us again next week for more disobedient Business and fucking with the status quo. We will see you next Tuesday.